New graphics card or Pro/E written badly? :-)

Hi,

I noticed a problem with Pro/E Wildfire. If I have three parts open then
everything works fine, but as soon as I open the fourth part, it absolutely
crawls along. It updates the display at about 1 frame per second, spinning
and zooming is impossible.

Why is this? It's not as if I'm trying to have more than one part on the
screen at a time, the other windows are minimised. I've got the latest
drivers for my graphics card (64Mb Intel 82845 type). Is this a bug in
Pro/E, or do I need to get a better graphics card?

Thanks

Scott

 

Scott,

unfortunately it sounds like the latter one, you need to spend a few
bucks. Have your tried changing the graphics mode in the config.pro? The
option should be something like 'graphics open_gl' Change that to
win_gdi. You may lose some of your hardware acceleration, but depending
on the type of work you are doing that may be just fine.

Tom

 

I believe your problem might be the hardware. The Intel 82845 is a memory
controller and not a video system component. You probably have an
integrated video system that uses shared ram. This means that it is a part
of your motherboard and uses the same relatively slow ram that you use for
applications. This type of system is EXTREMELY slow. If you can get either
an AGP or even a PCI card you will see a huge jump in performance. If this
is not possible reduce your resolution and color depth as much as possible.
This will give you some performance boost but probably not enough. You
might have to actually get another computer.

 

On some graphic cards you can set 'Enable backbuffer' under advanced
OpenGL settings. This helped a lot on Geforce2 for example, but as the
other replies says, your graphics is probably to 'low end'

 

Well, that lets me have 4 parts open and rotating smoothly, but opening the
5th part it all crawls again :-(

I don't understand why this happens though, surely Pro/E only needs to
redraw quickly 1 part at a time nomatter how many other windows are
minimised at the bottom? This indicates to me that they are taking up video
RAM with the minimised windows, surely a bad way to program a package like
Pro/E?

And why the hell do I need to click Window->Activate??? Why can't it do that
automatically when I maximise the window? Grrrrrr, I've only been using
Pro/E for a few months, but there are so many stupid things for that much
money.

Scott

 

Hi,As someone else stated, the reason this is happening is due to your
graphics card (your graphics appear to be integrated with the
motherboard). Your video probably does not support a 'unified
back/depth buffer' which causes video performance to decrease after
multiple 3D windows have been opened (even if they are not shown, or
minimized). The number of windows you can open without a decrease in
performance is tied to the available video memory, which explains why
you can gain a couple windows by decreasing your color depth and/or
resolution.

Most graphics cards are targeted and optimized towards either the small
office/home user or 3D gamer. They are not targeted or optimized for
serious professional 3D OpenGL applications like ProE.

Your video chip, unfortunately, is of the small office/home user
variety. Which means it will not work very well with applications such
as ProE. If you want better performance, you will need to purchase a
video card that was actually meant to run applications like ProE. I
would suggest any of the nVidia Quadro or ATI FireGL series cards. Even
the old, very cheap versions of these cards will easily outperform you
current card.

 

I know it's to do with the graphics card, but *why* is Pro/E written so
badly that even if you have 10 windows minimised and just one open it won't
work? Surely it should release the video surface memory when the window is
minimised? Every one who has followed an OpenGL or DirectX programming
tutorial for Windows knows that you need to release the surfaces when they
are no longer needed, to stop exactly the problems that I am getting with
Pro/E!

Seems a weird way to write a CAD program, or did they do it on purpose to
get people to buy better video cards?

Scott

 

You can look at it two ways:
Graphics card manufacturer's fault
or
Software application's fault

Actually, I believe it is mostly the graphics card's fault for not fully
supporting the OpenGL standard in all cards (including their consumer
level cards). The exact same issue is present in SolidWorks, 3D Studio,
and other professional 3D software.

I assume there is some sort of GOOD reason for the application
programmers to 'limit' their software in this manner. If not, why do
they all do it? If they could correct this issue and allow lower cost
consumer level graphics hardware without any adverse effects overall,
they would. They would only gain market share.

No, I am pretty sure the blame is squarely on the hardware manufacturers
(nVidia, ATI, and in your case, Intel). They are just using some
classic marketing techniques to make more profit.
Here is the scenario: Consumer graphics is a high volume, EXTREMELY
competitive market where cost generally rules above performance.
Professional graphics a lower volume, less competitive market, but (more
importantly) performance rules above cost.
What manufacturers end up doing is making a chip that can do both
consumer and pro applications. Then, to compete in the consumer market
AND make a good profit in the pro market, they disable some key pro
features in the consumer versions of their product. Thus, they can sell
LOTS of consumer products at a low price, and they can sell fewer pro
products at a high price.

This is done all the time in any industry. For example, Intel disables
some features on its Pentium and calls it a Celeron. John Deere has
different horsepower tractors where the only difference is how they
adjust the fuel mixture (one little screw or software setting).

There are all sorts of examples like this...

 

You can get a Geforce 2 and run a modified driver to enable the quadro code.
This works absolutely flawlessly. You can open the full 15 pro windows all
of which are fully accelerated. I use a pny quadro 750xgl. Except for the
dual monitor capability it runs no better then the geforce 2 cards I've seen
running the modified driver.

The cards are available cheap! (matbe $30 or less)

 

So, specifically, what feature do I need to have on my new graphics card to
have more Pro/E parts open? Is it just more video RAM? My models are quite
simple, mostly just a handful of cuboids and a couple of rounds. I have
used *far* more complex models in 3D studio with no problem on this machine.

Cheers

Scott

 

So, specifically, what feature do I need to have on my new graphics card to

What you would need is a graphics card specifically targeted at
professional level 3D applications (like ProE).

Currently, the nVidia Quadro and ATI FireGL series cards are the most
popular.

More video ram would help, but eventually, you would still run into the
same problem (10 windows instead of 3).

 

Oh ok, so what is different in the pro cards then? It seems from your
suggestions that all they do is swap in and out of video ram various images
instead of the software having to do it?

The fact that Robert suggests you can get bog-standard cheap GF2 to perform
well in Pro/E suggests to me that we are being conned into buying expensive
video cards...

 

Oh ok, so what is different in the pro cards then? It seems from your

The differences are really just drivers and how they are optimized.
nVidia and ATI PURPOSELY disable features in their "cheap" cards so that
you need to purchase their more costly professional cards to perform
well in ProE.

The reason Robert suggests a good ole GF2 is simply due to the fact that
back in the days of this card, nVidia did not yet disable all those
professional features in the "cheap" card. Thus, if you get that card,
along with some very old video drivers (5.32 I think), it will not have
the multiple window slowdown.

If you wish, you can also get one of today's "cheap" consumer GF cards
and use a utility called RivaTuner to trick it into thinking it is a
Quadro, thus gaining the professional features of that card. This can
be an involved and difficult process, however. Thus, I don't recommend
it unless you really know what you are doing AND have lots of patience.

In the end, I recommend just getting a nice Quadro or FireGL for use
with CAD applications. It is just less hassle and less costly in the
long run.

A very respectable QuadroFX 500 can be had for ~$250. This card WILL
perform well with ProE.

 

Scott,

I agree with Arlin's comments. Just one more thing: you seem to think that
this slowing down after 3rd (or fourth, fifth, etc.) window is unique to
ProE. It is not. I have experienced very similar behavior in SolidWorks. If
you check their newsgroup you will find complaints aplenty about it.
So it DOES seem to be the graphics card (and/or driver) problem rather than
a problem with particular CAD software.

Also, according to the reviews I've been reading, the latest models of both
NVIDIA and ATI consumer graphics chipsets have the performance features
available in the high-end graphics cards disabled IN HARDWARE. Up until
fairly recently, you could buy a gamer-oriented NVIDIA card and use the
software hack called SoftQuadro to make it (and its driver) believe it was
actually a professional-grade QUADRO card. The same kind of hack was
available for ATI cards. Unless somebody has figured out (again) how to
circumvent these new 'design improvements', I believe this trick is no
longer possible with the latest NVIDIA and ATI gamer cards.
Now, how is that for fair business practices and truth in advertising?

 

I disagree with you there, from a programmers point of view, there is no
reason at all why the graphics on Pro/E shouldn't work with consumer video
cards. It has just been written badly, that's all. If you follow the
DirectX or OpenGL tutorials it tells you to release any video ram when you
minimise the window. Pro/E (and SOlidworks if you say) appear *not* to do
this. I can write a program that will have 100 minimised windows and still
manage to rotate all the views nice and smoothly, one at time on my crappy
graphics card.

I bet it would only take a few lines of code to fix Pro/E so it worked with
consumer cards, but they don't want to do it because I'm sure they benefit
from all the expensive hardware people have to buy.

Just exactly what are these "performance features" that are only available
on the pro cards?

 

Oh OK, so the hardware is essentially fine, it's just the software that is
deliberately screwed to make me buy a more expensive card that isn't
actually any better, just has better drivers. Right.

I guess they take advantage of people mostly buying these from work and not
caring about the cost or questioning why they are any different!

 

Just exactly what are these "performance features" that are only available

The main one you are experiencing is the 'Unified Back/Depth Buffer.'
Consumer cards don't support this while pro cards do. By enabling this
setting, your multiple window problem will go away.

Another 'Pro' setting is Hardware antialiased lines. There are others,
but not at the top of my head now.

Why? ProE does not sell hardware. If they could do a you suggest, they
would only gain market share as it would reduce the total cost of
ownership due to the less expensive hardware required. I assume it is
this way due to some other limitation(s) (other than simply releasing
the video memory).

Not to be rude, but this is the way it is; You will have to live with
it. If you still want to beat this dead horse, you will need to take
this up with PTC themselves or the video card manufacturers.

I have no more to say on this issue (even my above comments were already
stated in previous posts to this thread).

 

Scott,

If you're interested in curing this problem cheaply, let me know.

Robert