As-Built vs Record Drawing vs Plan of Record

Discussion in 'AutoCAD' started by Joe Butler, Jan 22, 2004.

  1. Joe Butler

    Joe Butler Guest

    Would some explain to what the difference are.
    Thanks...JoeB
     
    Joe Butler, Jan 22, 2004
    #1
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  2. Joe Butler

    Tom Smith Guest

    That's a very good explanation and I agree with your definitions (I'm an
    architect too). A plan of record would be the one that's "on record" as a
    legal document with the building department. As-built drawings would be a
    depiction of the actual final product.

    Another factor you didn't mention on as-builts: measurement/documentation of
    construction errors which were deemed to be not bad enough to justify
    tearing down and rebuilding. Sometimes buildings don't get placed on the
    site exactly as intended, sometimes the foundation gets started a bit out of
    square or at the wrong elevation, and so forth (I'm sure you have your own
    list). If the glitch is fairly harmless, sometimes it stays that way.

    I don't hear about as-builts very often. Unless the owner or the building
    department insists on it, there isn't a reason to spend time documenting
    every little change that was made. As you say, the closest thing to a set of
    as-builts would be the contrractor's marked up set. Sometimes I hear of
    contracts which require a formal set of as-built drawings to be delivered
    with the building -- generally when it's a very high tech/high maintenance
    building type, and/or there's an intention to add on or remodel it in the
    foreseeable future.
     
    Tom Smith, Jan 22, 2004
    #2
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  3. Joe Butler

    Kent Elrod Guest

    Joe
    The A/E firms I have worked for do not ever use the term As-Built due to
    some litigation years ago where a Judge ruled against an A/E firm because
    the As-builts were not actually exact, etc. (don't remember the exact
    details, suffice it to say a lawyer was involved.) So the term Record
    Drawing came about, which apparently says little about whether the drawings
    match the building or not, but are the drawings turned over to the owner
    after construction red-lines are captured.

    The other responses talked about Plan of Record, so I will skip that.

    Kent Elrod
     
    Kent Elrod, Jan 22, 2004
    #3
  4. In my experience, Joe, a "Plan of Record" would be the set of documents that
    the structure was built FROM ...(aka "Building Department-Approved Contract
    Construction Documents") as prepared and sealed by the Architect of Record.

    Whereas the "As-built Documents" would be a set of documents representing
    what was ACTUALLY built by the General Contractor. Usually, this is not much
    more than a copy / field set of redlined/marked up Record Docs, in the
    G.C.'s possesion, that were prepared as the construction commenced, and
    usually would be prepared by the G.C. him/herself, and submittted to the
    Owner and Architect for his/her records.

    This could include minor changes to the structure that (best case) were
    approved by addendum or clarification by the Architect of Record and
    approved by the Owner ( ..i.e. <owner speaking:...:> "I don't care if we did
    approve it, now that I see it, we don't want that pink linoleum flooring!...
    we want imported Italian marble!), or (worst case) through discovery of
    errors or ommisions that as construction commenced, were brought to the
    attention of the Architect of Record and the Owner (.. i.e. <owner
    shrieking, this time...:>How could you have forgotten to tell the structural
    engineer about the 60,000 gallon fish tank on the second floor? What're we
    gonna do now? It's almost built, and my fish are all in little baggies
    sitting on the delivery truck!!).... and , No, that's never happened to me,
    thank goodness.

    Most of time time, the best case is a simple matter of choices made during
    or after submittal /approval by the governing jurisdiction (and sometimes
    may be significant enough to require a resubmittal to Plan Review, upon
    which, that APPROVED set could become the Record, or otherwise could be
    included into an Amended Record), the worst case comes out mostlty when
    there was inadequate pre-issue quality-control, poor communication and/or
    poor coordination between the Design Professional, the Owner (sometimes),
    and the Consulting Engineering Disciplines ( Our moral: communicate!!!)

    In some cases the Design Professional may be called upon (through contract,
    hopefully) to certify the changes by including the changes into the Record
    Documents and sealing the set.

    Hope that helps,

    W. Spears, AIA
     
    W Spears, AIA, Jan 22, 2004
    #4
  5. didn't notice there were three instances until I hit the send button... but
    I agree with the humorous (my word.. and only because of the inclusion of
    "..probably..") definition of "Record" , as well as the nomenclature
    issue... I hadn't heard that description before, either.
    Sorry for the confusion,
    W.
     
    W Spears, AIA, Jan 22, 2004
    #5
  6. <snip>

    Good points! I get giddy when they just put it on the right site!

    W.
     
    W Spears, AIA, Jan 22, 2004
    #6
  7. Joe:

    Be careful with the term "as built." I just found out the hard way that
    some people use the term very loosely.

    I recently did a restaurant upfit in a unfinished lease space. The
    developer installed a 1500 gallon grease trap as part of the initial
    development and provided a 4" line to the space to be leased so that all the
    tenant would have to do is connect his kitchen drains to this 4" line. The
    developer furnished me a set of drawings clearly stamped "as built" that
    showed the location of the grease trap on the left side of the building and
    out in the parking area about 150 feet away from the space. all my drawings
    showed the appropriate plumbing connecting to this existing 4" grease line.
    When I talked to the original architect, he told me that they had initially
    installed a grease trap to serve several of the lease spaces in case the
    need arose during the leasing phase.

    The tenants contractor installed the plumbing according to my drawings. The
    restaurant opens and within two or three weeks the restaurant starts
    smelling of methane gas. Of course the first thing anyone looks for is an
    improperly installed trap - nope, all are installed properly. Next we look
    for a loose vent stack - nope, all are connected. Finally we think that the
    methane gas must be coming in through the fresh air intake on the roof even
    though the vent stack is installed according to code and is at least 15'
    away from the make-up air unit. The roof is surrounded on all sides by a
    parapet at least 4' high. So we figured that the methane gas might be
    getting trapped on the roof instead of blowing away with the wind. The
    plumber came back and piped the vent stack up and over the parapet and this
    somewhat alleviated the problem but not totally. All this took about 3
    weeks to solve the problem and the restaurant owner says customers would
    come in and leave due to the smell - so he lost business. The thing that
    bothered me from day-one about this scenario was that in all my years in
    this business, I had never heard of this volume of methane gas escaping
    through the vent stack that it would be picked up by a "make-up" air unit
    that far away.

    Finally after about 4 weeks we found the real problem. The 1500 gallon
    grease trap was not installed where the "as-built" drawings indicated nor
    was it installed according to code. The grease trap was installed on the
    right side of the building right next to the lease space and buried about 8'
    in the ground to the top and was covered completely with dirt. The
    maintenance man for the shopping center didn't even know it was there - he
    thought it was out in the parking lot like the "as-built" drawings
    indicated. Since this grease trap was completely covered with dirt and
    there was no vent stack installed with the grease trap as required by code -
    all that methane gas produced by a 1500 gallon tank built up back through
    the system until it either forced its way back through the "p-traps" in the
    floor or through the roof vent in such a quantity that it was picked up by
    the "make-up" air unit. Once we uncovered the grease trap and allowed it to
    vent, the smell went away.

    Now the tenant (my client) is looking for someone to help him recoup the
    income he lost during this period. Fortunately for me, it's something he his
    going to have to discuss with the landlord because I have an "as-built"
    drawing upon which I based my designs that indicates a completely different
    situation to the one that actually existed. Had the grease trap been
    installed as indicated by the "as-built" drawings, this problem never would
    have happened.

    If you ever stamp a drawing "as-built" you better be sure it was built that
    way!
     
    Marshall Caudle, Jan 23, 2004
    #7
  8. Joe Butler

    Matt Guest

    Good Point. By the way, on a side note, does your contract make you
    responsible for plumbing beyond 5' of the structure. Standard clause around
    here (SW Fla).
    Matt
     
    Matt, Jan 23, 2004
    #8
  9. Joe Butler

    Ric Hammond Guest

    As-Built is prepared by the contractor.

    Record drawing prepared by the Architect from the contractors As-Built
    drawings and delivered to the Owner.

    Check the AIA documents It defines Record Drawings.

    Ric Hammond, AIA
     
    Ric Hammond, Jan 23, 2004
    #9
  10. Joe Butler

    Joe Butler Guest

    Thanks for all the replies. I'm surprised there weren't more from the Civil
    engineering side. Again thanks...JoeB
     
    Joe Butler, Jan 25, 2004
    #10
  11. ....at least insofar as the State of Nevada is concerned..(guess "Plan of
    Record" slipped though the cracks)

    ....following are minutes from their registration board's 9/10/2003 meeting.

    http://www.nsbaidrd.state.nv.us/pdfs/Minutes/2003-0910 Minutes.htm

    W.




    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------

    AGENDA ITEM 10C: Discussion and possible decision whether
    preparing "as-built drawings"

    constitutes the practice of architecture



    Board members discussed the differences between "as-built" and "record"
    drawings, noting that oftentimes the words are used interchangeably.
    "As-built drawings" are a historical record of what is already there.
    As-built drawings can call out details, such as load-bearing walls. Anyone
    can provide as-built drawings, because a recording of what already exists is
    not the practice of architecture. It is acceptable for a non-registrant to
    provide as-built drawings, even if he knows the building owner's intent is
    to use them for a remodel. It is the responsibility of the design
    professional or contractor, hired by the owner to do the remodel of the
    space, to provide his own drawings.



    "Record drawings" are often done upon completion of construction. Record
    drawings must be done by a design professional because changes are being
    made to the plans used to construct the building. These record drawings
    incorporate changes made during construction.
     
    W. Spears, AIA, Mar 1, 2004
    #11
  12. Joe Butler

    jackshield Guest

    as arch, you may not have use for "as-built".
    in a mech enviro, we do it frequently, sometimes documenting things that never had record file.
    for the guy working on machine, an as-built that reflects what is "really" there is very important.
     
    jackshield, Mar 1, 2004
    #12
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