A question for Tony T

Tony, in the recent float lisp thread you mentioned that entxxxx lisp is
dead. Could you clarify to someone like me, who can lisp around a bit but
has nowhere near the level of knowledge or proficiency you possess?

is lisp a dead end?

what language should I be using, or learning about?

you don't sound very happy about activex either, is that something best left
alone?

We have hundreds of very useful lisps specially tailored to our work - are
you saying that I have to look at porting these to another language?


Thank you.

 

Autodesk has already made it clear that they're not going
continue supporting the (entxxxx) style functions for accessing
and modifying entity data. In fact, newer releases of some
vertical products do not even support it, and the only way to
access the custom objects in those applications is via their
ActiveX interfaces.

While you can continue to do relatively simple programming
with that style of coding, it is obsolete and certainly does
not have any future. Considering how cryptic DXF codes are,
I can't see why anyone would want to program that way any
longer, given the ActiveX API, but in LISP, the syntax is a
bit convoluted, and you have to write a lot more code (the
advantage is that it is more explicit and therefore makes the
intent of the code much clearer, at the expense of brevity).

ActiveX is fine if you use VBA or another imperative language
with a rational OOP syntax, but for LISP it is simply not my
preferred way to code.

The point to the comment about the entxxxx style of LISP
coding, is that someone was using it to "copy" entities,
but didn't realize that it was not really doing that, and
hence, could have undesireable effects in some circumstances.

 

To add to what Tony said, comments from Autodesk personnel
regarding the vertical product (ADT) indicate that if you want to develop
for that application, you must use ARX(C++) in order to gain access
to ADT objects and methods. There is a software development kit
available using C++. The activeX interface for ADT is either too basic or
deliberately disabled such that it is extremely difficult for the end
user to improve the ADT product with those tools.

I was disappointed, for example, with the flexibility of how wall trimmed
ACAD entities. After looking at the ActiveX interface for getting
wall component information, I gave up and had to use a ridiculously
complicated (entget) sequence to obtain that component information.

The help files for the ADT object model state:
"Most wall style properties are not yet exposed through ActiveX."

I would suspect that these properties will only be exposed when
Autodesk has completed its development cycle of ADT and has
moved on to other technologies. Either Autodesk does not
want to risk end users becoming potentital competitors or it can't
afford to spend the time to make ActiveX tools available for
objects that are changing rapidly with each release.

Regards,
Doug

 

Dear Tony,

Thank you for your detailed reply. I read all the way through the float
discussion and understood that the entmake function won't copy the
dictionaries.

I started to learn vba, and saw the potential for easy dialogue boxes, but I
stumbled over the issues of default values, and the fact that I had never
learned any of the 'Visual' type of programming.

If someone like me wanted to get started in the right direction, I assume
that rewriting some of my simpler lisps into VBA would be the best way to
go?

Thanks


Jamie Duncan

 

Thank you Doug. Unfortunately from my perspective that muddies the waters
even more. We don't use ADT, we have an in-house system whose technology
may be old, but is directly suited to our work (95% is 2D space planning of
large metropolitan hospitals).
I guess we may just have to wait and see on this one, especially with revit
out there.



--
Jamie Duncan

"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants,
rather than to create it herself."
- Anais Nin (1903-1977)

 

Thanks James.
I've had some success digging, as you say, also. Sounds
like we both have hard enough heads to keep banging away.;-)

I also heartily agree with your hope that Autodesk never
abandons the LISP.

As an end user, like yourself, its rather frustrating though
to spend time rooting around blindly with virtually no
documentation to go by with regards to ADT.

Just to give some of the lurkers an idea of what I'm talking
about, I attach the entity data from a single short horizontal
brick wall with no doors or windows or special modifications.

Command: (entget(car(entsel)))

Select object: ((-1 . <Entity name: 7efa8ea8>) (0 . "AEC_WALL") (330 . <Entity
name: 7efa4cf8>) (5 . "1BF5") (100 . "AcDbEntity") (67 . 0) (410 . "Model") (8
.. "A-Wall") (100 . "AecDbEntity") (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 .
"AecImpWallLinear") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpEnt") (171 . 0)
(100 . "AecImpGeo") (10 70.125 284.188 0.0) (15 1.0 0.0 0.0) (16 0.0 1.0 0.0)
(210 0.0 0.0 1.0) (360 . <Entity name: 0>) (100 . "AecImpWall") (102 .
"{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecWallCutLine") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 .
"AecWallCutLine") (71 . 1) (102 . "{AEC_WALLCUTLINE_ANCHORS") (100 .
"AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 . 2) (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT")
(300 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 .
"AecWallCutLineAnchor") (40 . 0.0) (41 . 0.0) (70 . 0) (71 . 2) (102 .
"AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (100
.. "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (40 . 0.0) (41 . 0.0)
(70 . 1) (71 . 2) (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "AEC_WALLCUTLINE_ANCHORS}")
(102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecWallCutLine") (100
.. "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecWallCutLine") (71 . 0) (102 .
"{AEC_WALLCUTLINE_ANCHORS") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray")
(90 . 2) (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (100 .
"AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (40 . 0.0) (41 . 0.0) (70
.. 0) (71 . 7) (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 .
"AecWallCutLineAnchor") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 .
"AecWallCutLineAnchor") (40 . 0.0) (41 . 0.0) (70 . 1) (71 . 7) (102 .
"AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "AEC_WALLCUTLINE_ANCHORS}") (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}")
(40 . 96.0) (73 . 3) (42 . 8.0) (341 . <Entity name: 7efa8e78>) (74 . 2) (43 .
0.0) (102 . "{AEC_WALL_MODIFIERS") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 .
"AecImpArray") (90 . 0) (102 . "AEC_WALL_MODIFIERS}") (102 .
"{AEC_WALLSTYLE_OVERRIDES") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray")
(90 . 0) (102 . "AEC_WALLSTYLE_OVERRIDES}") (102 . "{AEC_WALL_INTERFERENCE")
(100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 . 0) (102 .
"AEC_WALL_INTERFERENCE}") (343 . <Entity name: 7efa8d78>) (102 .
"{AEC_WALL_MERGERS") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 .
0) (102 . "AEC_WALL_MERGERS}") (102 . "{AEC_WALL_CUSTOM_GEOMETRY") (100 .
"AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 . 0) (102 .
"AEC_WALL_CUSTOM_GEOMETRY}") (100 . "AecImpWallLinear") (102 . "{ACGECURVE3D")
(280 . 3) (10 70.125 284.188 0.0) (10 209.563 0.0 0.0) (102 . "ACGECURVE3D}")
(210 0.0 0.0 1.0) (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "{AEC_NULLOBJECT}") (100 .
"AecDbGeo") (100 . "AecDbWall"))

If for example, I wanted to recreate a wall with entmake, I'd be
quite lost. Deciphering this does not seem "end-user" practical.
It therefore puts all users on an equal footing with only their
knowledge of the ADT UI being the only leverage.

As a teacher, I have to try to predict what will be
around 5-10 years down the line so that I will know
what to teach them to maximize their success. In the
small town of Rocky Mount, NC architects are
using (ADT, Archicad, DataCAD, plain AutoCAD, AutoCAD
LT, Microstation...). (Nobody is on Revit yet). With the
ADT learning curve being 3-6 months IMO,
I could be teaching students a lot of useless stuff if
local architects don't go with ADT. Even Autodesk
wafflles about ADT's long term future.

5 years ago, Autodesk was an obvious choice and
customization knowledge an obvious help. Today
my crystal ball has been muddied so that I have know
idea what's next and what will be best to teach.

Thanks for your comments.

Regards,
Doug

 

Jamie,

I've been hearing AutoLISP is dead for many a year. It is still the
best ACAD customization tool that works cross platform. There are work
arounds for the absent DXF codes that have been mentioned. They have
always been there.

Use the tool that is right for you, not always the one recommended to
you. No one knows what you needs are better than you. Also, your
comfort level and programming abilities come into the formula.

I still use R12 DOS as my base platform. It is my most efficient
combination in my particular discipline. -David

 

Doug,

Dean McCarns, myself, and a few others have been successfully customizing
ADT with plain ole lisp (think R14 Visual Lisp). Everything you need to
modify the ADT Object Model is right there, exposed to Lisp through either
Activex or dictionaries, you just have to do some digging.

I hope AutoDesk never abandones lisp. I'm NOT a programmer - I'm a user.
If it wasn't for VisuaLISP (and ObjectDCL) I'd be up the preverbial creek
without the proverbial paddle.

jb

 

Maybe not a good Idea to put alot of time and effort into learning VBA
either.
Microsoft has already announced that VB6 is going away and is being replaced
with .NET.
I'm not a professional programmer and I don't have enough time to learn a
new
language every 5-years. I sure hope Vlisp stays 'till I retire at least!

 

James,
Thanks for the illustration. That seems practical
for the average customizer. I see what you
mean about R14 visual lisp.

Regards,
Doug

 

does 'no support' mean a user would have to convert existing ENTXXX code to
ACTIVEX?

supporting the (entxxxx) style functions for accessing and modifying entity
data.

 

Most likely, it means that there's not going to be
DXF support for any new properties or objects that
are added.

 

thanks

 

If for example, I wanted to recreate a wall with entmake . . .

The better way - but still good ole lisp. Notice how I get ActiveX stuff:

(setq acad(vlax-get-acad-object)
thisDrawing(vlax-get acad "activedocument")
modelspace(vlax-get thisDrawing "modelspace"))

;select a wall to match style

(setq wallstyle(vlax-get (vlax-ename->vla-object(car(entsel "\nSelect a
Wall: ")))"stylename")
p1(getpoint "\nWall start point: ")
p2(getpoint "\nWall end point: "))

;create the wall
(setq newwall(vlax-invoke modelspace "AddCustomObject""AecWall"))

; apply properties
(vlax-put newwall "startpoint" p1)
(vlax-put newwall "endpoint" p2)
(vlax-put newwall "stylename" wallstyle)

Thanks to Dean McCarns for discovering the ADT Object Model prefers to be
modified via vlax-put, vlax-get, and vlax-invoke. These functions don't
expect a certain return as do the vla- and vlax-get-property functions.
They accept whatever the object throws - so you don't see the exception in
some instances.

jb

 

James:

What other properties be applied to the wall using this method, other than
the style?
The obvious ones would be height, width and justification....

I've extended your code example, and can get "width", but not "height" or
"justification"....

Thanks,

Fred Schreck
KMD Architects
San Francisco

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CODE SAMPLE

(defun C:ADDWALLSELECTED ( )

(setq acad (vlax-get-acad-object)
thisDrawing (vlax-get acad "activedocument")
modelspace (vlax-get thisDrawing "modelspace")
);setq

;; select a wall to match style

(setq wallobj (vlax-ename->vla-object (car (entsel "\nSelect a Wall: "))))

(setq wallstyle (vlax-get wallobj "stylename"))
(setq wallwidth (vlax-get wallobj "width")) ;; works!!!
(setq wallheight (vlax-get wallobj "height")) ;; doesn't work
(setq walljust (vlax-get wallobj "justification")) ;; doesn't work

(setq p1 (getpoint "\nWall start point: "))
(setq p2 (getpoint p1 "\nWall end point: "))

;create the wall

(setq newwall (vlax-invoke modelspace "AddCustomObject" "AecWall"))

;; apply properties

(vlax-put newwall "startpoint" p1)
(vlax-put newwall "endpoint" p2)
(vlax-put newwall "stylename" wallstyle)
(vlax-put newwall "width" wallwidth) ;; works!!!

(vlax-put newwall "height" wallheight) ;; doesn't work
(vlax-put newwall "justification" walljust) ;; doesn't work

);defun



(princ)

 

James:

I dug some more, and found the answer... "baseheight" and "justify".
Thanks for sharing your code- I learned something useful.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Here's the sample code:

(defun C:ADDWALLSELECTED ( )

(setq acad (vlax-get-acad-object)
thisDrawing (vlax-get acad "activedocument")
modelspace (vlax-get thisDrawing "modelspace")
);setq

;; select a wall to match style

(setq wallobj (vlax-ename->vla-object (car (entsel "\nSelect a Wall: "))))

(setq wallstyle (vlax-get wallobj "stylename"))
(setq wallwidth (vlax-get wallobj "width"))
(setq wallheight (vlax-get wallobj "baseheight"))
(setq walljust (vlax-get wallobj "justify"))

(setq p1 (getpoint "\nWall start point: "))
(setq p2 (getpoint p1 "\nWall end point: "))

;create the wall

(setq newwall (vlax-invoke modelspace "AddCustomObject" "AecWall"))

;; apply properties

(vlax-put newwall "startpoint" p1)
(vlax-put newwall "endpoint" p2)
(vlax-put newwall "stylename" wallstyle)
(vlax-put newwall "width" wallwidth)
(vlax-put newwall "baseheight" wallheight)
(vlax-put newwall "justify" walljust)

);defun

(princ)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
For anybody that's interested, here's the wall property names extracted from
a sample wall object:

; Application (RO) = #<VLA-OBJECT IAcadApplication 00a8a730>
; BaseHeight = 96.0
; Cleanup = -1
; CleanupGroup = #<VLA-OBJECT IAecCleanupGroup 07880bc0>
; CleanupGroupName = "Standard"
; CleanupRadius = 0.0
; Color = 256
; Description = ""
; Document (RO) = #<VLA-OBJECT IAcadDocument 0105b8cc>
; EndCleanupRadius = 0.0
; EndEndcapStyle = #<VLA-OBJECT IAecEndcapStyle 07880af0>
; EndPoint = (1266.92 426.572 0.0)
; Handle (RO) = "1A2"
; HasExtensionDictionary (RO) = 0
; Hyperlinks (RO) = #<VLA-OBJECT IAcadHyperlinks 07880ab4>
; Justify = 3
; Layer = "0"
; Length = 414.429
; Linetype = "ByLayer"
; LinetypeScale = 1.0
; Lineweight = -1
; Location = (852.49 426.572 0.0)
; MidPoint = (1059.7 426.572 0.0)
; Modifiers (RO) = #<VLA-OBJECT IAecWallModifiers 07880700>
; Normal = (0.0 0.0 1.0)
; ObjectID (RO) = 1075886544
; ObjectName (RO) = "AecDbWall"
; OwnerID (RO) = 1074445560
; PlotStyleName = "ByLayer"
; Radius = 0.0
; Rotation = 0.0
; StartCleanupRadius = 0.0
; StartEndcapStyle = #<VLA-OBJECT IAecEndcapStyle 07880af0>
; StartPoint = (852.49 426.572 0.0)
; Style = #<VLA-OBJECT IAecWallStyle 07880570>
; StyleName = "Standard"
; Visible = -1
; Width = 24.0

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Same's true for Land Desktop. The dictionaries actually hold everything in
terms of drawing variables. Though they are not documented, a little T&E
reveals the DXF structure. This of course is what Autodesk does NOT want us to
know... how to access vertical data without the vertical application present
(read "paid for"). They've done a marvelous job in this respect in the 2004
edition of verticals. You really *can't* access custom object data without the
application present. Very clever.

The sad part is that the ActiveX methods/properties are not all revealed even if
you've paid for the application. Okay, skip the vertical arguments... Tell me
how with ActiveX you can easily find what leader(s) is/are attached to an MTEXT
without filtering through every leader and checking its Annotation object. Tell
me how you can easily separate polyline control vertices from actual vertices
without DXF codes. Tell me how you can create/modify a linetype without DXF
codes. Either they provide the ActiveX methods/properties or it's one giant
step backwards for add-ons to improve their own software. The original reason I
selected AutoCAD as the base CAD engine in 1988 was because of its open
architecture. LDT and ADT wouldn't be here today as Autodesk products if the
architecture were proprietary. Should we/they read back on the rise and fall of
the Roman Empire?

 

Fred,
I'm glad you found this useful - what it's all about!

jb