A question for Tony T

[Jamie Duncan]

Tony, in the recent float lisp thread you mentioned that entxxxx lisp is dead. Could you clarify to someone like me, who can lisp around a bit but has nowhere near the level of knowledge or proficiency you possess?

is lisp a dead end?

what language should I be using, or learning about?

you don't sound very happy about activex either, is that something best left alone?

We have hundreds of very useful lisps specially tailored to our work - are you saying that I have to look at porting these to another language?

Thank you.

 

[Tony Tanzillo]

Autodesk has already made it clear that they're not going continue supporting the (entxxxx) style functions for accessing and modifying entity data. In fact, newer releases of some vertical products do not even support it, and the only way to access the custom objects in those applications is via their ActiveX interfaces.

While you can continue to do relatively simple programming with that style of coding, it is obsolete and certainly does not have any future. Considering how cryptic DXF codes are, I can't see why anyone would want to program that way any longer, given the ActiveX API, but in LISP, the syntax is a bit convoluted, and you have to write a lot more code (the advantage is that it is more explicit and therefore makes the intent of the code much clearer, at the expense of brevity).

ActiveX is fine if you use VBA or another imperative language with a rational OOP syntax, but for LISP it is simply not my preferred way to code.

The point to the comment about the entxxxx style of LISP coding, is that someone was using it to "copy" entities, but didn't realize that it was not really doing that, and hence, could have undesireable effects in some circumstances.

 

[Doug Broad]

To add to what Tony said, comments from Autodesk personnel regarding the vertical product (ADT) indicate that if you want to develop for that application, you must use ARX(C++) in order to gain access to ADT objects and methods. There is a software development kit available using C++. The activeX interface for ADT is either too basic or deliberately disabled such that it is extremely difficult for the end user to improve the ADT product with those tools.

I was disappointed, for example, with the flexibility of how wall trimmed ACAD entities. After looking at the ActiveX interface for getting wall component information, I gave up and had to use a ridiculously complicated (entget) sequence to obtain that component information.

The help files for the ADT object model state:
"Most wall style properties are not yet exposed through ActiveX."

I would suspect that these properties will only be exposed when Autodesk has completed its development cycle of ADT and has moved on to other technologies. Either Autodesk does not want to risk end users becoming potentital competitors or it can't afford to spend the time to make ActiveX tools available for objects that are changing rapidly with each release.

Regards,
Doug

 

[Jamie Duncan]

Dear Tony,

Thank you for your detailed reply. I read all the way through the float discussion and understood that the entmake function won't copy the dictionaries.

I started to learn vba, and saw the potential for easy dialogue boxes, but I stumbled over the issues of default values, and the fact that I had never learned any of the 'Visual' type of programming.

If someone like me wanted to get started in the right direction, I assume that rewriting some of my simpler lisps into VBA would be the best way to go?

Thanks

Jamie Duncan

 

[Jamie Duncan]

Thank you Doug. Unfortunately from my perspective that muddies the waters even more. We don't use ADT, we have an in-house system whose technology may be old, but is directly suited to our work (95% is 2D space planning of large metropolitan hospitals). I guess we may just have to wait and see on this one, especially with revit out there.

 

[Doug Broad]

Thanks James.
I've had some success digging, as you say, also. Sounds like we both have hard enough heads to keep banging away.;-)

I also heartily agree with your hope that Autodesk never abandons the LISP.

As an end user, like yourself, its rather frustrating though to spend time rooting around blindly with virtually no documentation to go by with regards to ADT.

Just to give some of the lurkers an idea of what I'm talking about, I attach the entity data from a single short horizontal brick wall with no doors or windows or special modifications.

Command: (entget(car(entsel)))

Select object: ((-1 . <Entity name: 7efa8ea8>) (0 . "AEC_WALL") (330 . <Entity name: 7efa4cf8>) (5 . "1BF5") (100 . "AcDbEntity") (67 . 0) (410 . "Model") (8 .. "A-Wall") (100 . "AecDbEntity") (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecImpWallLinear") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpEnt") (171 . 0) (100 . "AecImpGeo") (10 70.125 284.188 0.0) (15 1.0 0.0 0.0) (16 0.0 1.0 0.0) (210 0.0 0.0 1.0) (360 . <Entity name: 0>) (100 . "AecImpWall") (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecWallCutLine") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecWallCutLine") (71 . 1) (102 . "{AEC_WALLCUTLINE_ANCHORS") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 . 2) (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (40 . 0.0) (41 . 0.0) (70 . 0) (71 . 2) (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (100 .. "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (40 . 0.0) (41 . 0.0) (70 . 1) (71 . 2) (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "AEC_WALLCUTLINE_ANCHORS}") (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecWallCutLine") (100 .. "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecWallCutLine") (71 . 0) (102 . "{AEC_WALLCUTLINE_ANCHORS") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 . 2) (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (40 . 0.0) (41 . 0.0) (70 .. 0) (71 . 7) (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "{AEC_SUBOBJECT") (300 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecWallCutLineAnchor") (40 . 0.0) (41 . 0.0) (70 . 1) (71 . 7) (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "AEC_WALLCUTLINE_ANCHORS}") (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (40 . 96.0) (73 . 3) (42 . 8.0) (341 . <Entity name: 7efa8e78>) (74 . 2) (43 .
0.0) (102 . "{AEC_WALL_MODIFIERS") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 . 0) (102 . "AEC_WALL_MODIFIERS}") (102 . "{AEC_WALLSTYLE_OVERRIDES") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 . 0) (102 . "AEC_WALLSTYLE_OVERRIDES}") (102 . "{AEC_WALL_INTERFERENCE") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 . 0) (102 . "AEC_WALL_INTERFERENCE}") (343 . <Entity name: 7efa8d78>) (102 . "{AEC_WALL_MERGERS") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 .
0) (102 . "AEC_WALL_MERGERS}") (102 . "{AEC_WALL_CUSTOM_GEOMETRY") (100 . "AecImpObj") (3 . "") (100 . "AecImpArray") (90 . 0) (102 . "AEC_WALL_CUSTOM_GEOMETRY}") (100 . "AecImpWallLinear") (102 . "{ACGECURVE3D") (280 . 3) (10 70.125 284.188 0.0) (10 209.563 0.0 0.0) (102 . "ACGECURVE3D}") (210 0.0 0.0 1.0) (102 . "AEC_SUBOBJECT}") (102 . "{AEC_NULLOBJECT}") (100 . "AecDbGeo") (100 . "AecDbWall"))

If for example, I wanted to recreate a wall with entmake, I'd be quite lost. Deciphering this does not seem "end-user" practical. It therefore puts all users on an equal footing with only their knowledge of the ADT UI being the only leverage.

As a teacher, I have to try to predict what will be
around 5-10 years down the line so that I will know
what to teach them to maximize their success. In the
small town of Rocky Mount, NC architects are
using (ADT, Archicad, DataCAD, plain AutoCAD, AutoCAD
LT, Microstation...). (Nobody is on Revit yet). With the ADT learning curve being 3-6 months IMO, I could be teaching students a lot of useless stuff if local architects don't go with ADT. Even Autodesk wafflles about ADT's long term future.

5 years ago, Autodesk was an obvious choice and
customization knowledge an obvious help. Today
my crystal ball has been muddied so that I have know
idea what's next and what will be best to teach.

Thanks for your comments.

Regards,
Doug

 

[David Bethel]

Jamie,

I've been hearing AutoLISP is dead for many a year. It is still the best ACAD customization tool that works cross platform. There are work arounds for the absent DXF codes that have been mentioned. They have always been there.

Use the tool that is right for you, not always the one recommended to you. No one knows what you needs are better than you. Also, your comfort level and programming abilities come into the formula.

I still use R12 DOS as my base platform. It is my most efficient combination in my particular discipline. -David

 

[James Buzbee]

Doug,

Dean McCarns, myself, and a few others have been successfully customizing ADT with plain ole lisp (think R14 Visual Lisp). Everything you need to modify the ADT Object Model is right there, exposed to Lisp through either Activex or dictionaries, you just have to do some digging.

I hope AutoDesk never abandones lisp. I'm NOT a programmer - I'm a user. If it wasn't for VisuaLISP (and ObjectDCL) I'd be up the preverbial creek without the proverbial paddle.

jb

 

[Dan]

Maybe not a good Idea to put alot of time and effort into learning VBA either. Microsoft has already announced that VB6 is going away and is being replaced with .NET. I'm not a professional programmer and I don't have enough time to learn a new language every 5-years. I sure hope Vlisp stays 'till I retire at least!

 

[Doug Broad]

James,
Thanks for the illustration. That seems practical
for the average customizer. I see what you
mean about R14 visual lisp.

Regards,
Doug

 

[the aec industry is dysfunctional]

does 'no support' mean a user would have to convert existing ENTXXX code to ACTIVEX?

Autodesk has already made it clear that they're not going continue

supporting the (entxxxx) style functions for accessing and modifying entity data.

 

[Tony Tanzillo]

Most likely, it means that there's not going to be
DXF support for any new properties or objects that
are added.

 

[the aec industry is dysfunctional]

thanks

 

[James Buzbee]

If for example, I wanted to recreate a wall with entmake . . .

The better way - but still good ole lisp. Notice how I get ActiveX stuff:

(setq acad(vlax-get-acad-object)
thisDrawing(vlax-get acad "activedocument")
modelspace(vlax-get thisDrawing "modelspace"))

;select a wall to match style

(setq wallstyle(vlax-get (vlax-ename->vla-object(car(entsel "\nSelect a
Wall: ")))"stylename")
p1(getpoint "\nWall start point: ")
p2(getpoint "\nWall end point: "))

;create the wall
(setq newwall(vlax-invoke modelspace "AddCustomObject""AecWall"))

; apply properties
(vlax-put newwall "startpoint" p1)
(vlax-put newwall "endpoint" p2)
(vlax-put newwall "stylename" wallstyle)

Thanks to Dean McCarns for discovering the ADT Object Model prefers to be modified via vlax-put, vlax-get, and vlax-invoke. These functions don't expect a certain return as do the vla- and vlax-get-property functions. They accept whatever the object throws - so you don't see the exception in some instances.

jb

 

[Fred Schreck]

James:

What other properties be applied to the wall using this method, other than the style? The obvious ones would be height, width and justification....

I've extended your code example, and can get "width", but not "height" or "justification"....

Thanks,

Fred Schreck
KMD Architects
San Francisco

CODE SAMPLE

(defun C:ADDWALLSELECTED

(setq acad (vlax-get-acad-object)
thisDrawing (vlax-get acad "activedocument")
modelspace (vlax-get thisDrawing "modelspace")
);setq

;; select a wall to match style

(setq wallobj (vlax-ename->vla-object (car (entsel "\nSelect a Wall: "))))

(setq wallstyle (vlax-get wallobj "stylename"))
(setq wallwidth (vlax-get wallobj "width")) ;; works!!! (setq wallheight (vlax-get wallobj "height")) ;; doesn't work (setq walljust (vlax-get wallobj "justification")) ;; doesn't work

(setq p1 (getpoint "\nWall start point: "))
(setq p2 (getpoint p1 "\nWall end point: "))

;create the wall

(setq newwall (vlax-invoke modelspace "AddCustomObject" "AecWall"))

;; apply properties

(vlax-put newwall "startpoint" p1)
(vlax-put newwall "endpoint" p2)
(vlax-put newwall "stylename" wallstyle)
(vlax-put newwall "width" wallwidth) ;; works!!!

(vlax-put newwall "height" wallheight) ;; doesn't work
(vlax-put newwall "justification" walljust) ;; doesn't work

);defun

(princ)

 

[Fred Schreck]

James:

I dug some more, and found the answer... "baseheight" and "justify". Thanks for sharing your code- I learned something useful.

----
Here's the sample code:

(defun C:ADDWALLSELECTED

(setq acad (vlax-get-acad-object)
thisDrawing (vlax-get acad "activedocument")
modelspace (vlax-get thisDrawing "modelspace")
);setq

;; select a wall to match style

(setq wallobj (vlax-ename->vla-object (car (entsel "\nSelect a Wall: "))))

(setq wallstyle (vlax-get wallobj "stylename"))
(setq wallwidth (vlax-get wallobj "width"))
(setq wallheight (vlax-get wallobj "baseheight"))
(setq walljust (vlax-get wallobj "justify"))

(setq p1 (getpoint "\nWall start point: "))
(setq p2 (getpoint p1 "\nWall end point: "))

;create the wall

(setq newwall (vlax-invoke modelspace "AddCustomObject" "AecWall"))

;; apply properties

(vlax-put newwall "startpoint" p1)
(vlax-put newwall "endpoint" p2)
(vlax-put newwall "stylename" wallstyle)
(vlax-put newwall "width" wallwidth)
(vlax-put newwall "baseheight" wallheight)
(vlax-put newwall "justify" walljust)

);defun

(princ)

For anybody that's interested, here's the wall property names extracted from a sample wall object:

; Application (RO) = #<VLA-OBJECT IAcadApplication 00a8a730> ; BaseHeight = 96.0 ; Cleanup = -1 ; CleanupGroup = #<VLA-OBJECT IAecCleanupGroup 07880bc0> ; CleanupGroupName = "Standard" ; CleanupRadius = 0.0 ; Color = 256 ; Description = "" ; Document (RO) = #<VLA-OBJECT IAcadDocument 0105b8cc> ; EndCleanupRadius = 0.0 ; EndEndcapStyle = #<VLA-OBJECT IAecEndcapStyle 07880af0> ; EndPoint = (1266.92 426.572 0.0) ; Handle (RO) = "1A2" ; HasExtensionDictionary (RO) = 0 ; Hyperlinks (RO) = #<VLA-OBJECT IAcadHyperlinks 07880ab4> ; Justify = 3 ; Layer = "0" ; Length = 414.429 ; Linetype = "ByLayer" ; LinetypeScale = 1.0 ; Lineweight = -1 ; Location = (852.49 426.572 0.0) ; MidPoint = (1059.7 426.572 0.0) ; Modifiers (RO) = #<VLA-OBJECT IAecWallModifiers 07880700> ; Normal = (0.0 0.0 1.0) ; ObjectID (RO) = 1075886544 ; ObjectName (RO) = "AecDbWall" ; OwnerID (RO) = 1074445560 ; PlotStyleName = "ByLayer" ; Radius = 0.0 ; Rotation = 0.0 ; StartCleanupRadius = 0.0 ; StartEndcapStyle = #<VLA-OBJECT IAecEndcapStyle 07880af0> ; StartPoint = (852.49 426.572 0.0) ; Style = #<VLA-OBJECT IAecWallStyle 07880570> ; StyleName = "Standard" ; Visible = -1 ; Width = 24.0

 

[John Uhden]

Same's true for Land Desktop. The dictionaries actually hold everything in terms of drawing variables. Though they are not documented, a little T&E reveals the DXF structure. This of course is what Autodesk does NOT want us to know... how to access vertical data without the vertical application present (read "paid for"). They've done a marvelous job in this respect in the 2004 edition of verticals. You really *can't* access custom object data without the application present. Very clever.

The sad part is that the ActiveX methods/properties are not all revealed even if you've paid for the application. Okay, skip the vertical arguments... Tell me how with ActiveX you can easily find what leader(s) is/are attached to an MTEXT without filtering through every leader and checking its Annotation object. Tell me how you can easily separate polyline control vertices from actual vertices without DXF codes. Tell me how you can create/modify a linetype without DXF codes. Either they provide the ActiveX methods/properties or it's one giant step backwards for add-ons to improve their own software. The original reason I selected AutoCAD as the base CAD engine in 1988 was because of its open architecture. LDT and ADT wouldn't be here today as Autodesk products if the architecture were proprietary. Should we/they read back on the rise and fall of the Roman Empire?

 

[James Buzbee]

Fred,
I'm glad you found this useful - what it's all about!

jb